OTA recording: What am I missing? - n00b

Help and Support
1

Hi everyone,

I am about to purchase the Vero V with OSMC, and I have some questions about what it will do and what I will need for my use case.

While I am not new to Linux (I have been using one distro or another as my daily driver since 2008), I am very new to media center devices. So, most of my media center related questions are for a n00b. That said, I am comfortable in the terminal and am willing to tweak to get things to work how I need them to…

What I currently have:
• One TV with 4K resolution that is not “smart” (I do not watch TV on multiple devices, so I do not need a network tuner).
• Receiver for audio and various peripherals.

What I would like to do. I am in the U.S. and I have just “cut the cord”. If possible, I would like to do the following with the Vero V:
• Capture over the air 4K broadcasts from ABC, CBS, Fox, and NBC using an antenna.
• Record these broadcasted shows to a media center device so that I can fast forward through commercial breaks after the live stream has completed.

What I think I need based on reading a bit about over-the-air capture and recording:
• Antenna: 2025 Upgraded TV Antenna for Smart TV, 1600+ Miles Range, Indoor/Outdoor Digital Antenna for Local Channels, HD 4K Support, Amplified Signal Booster, Clear Reception for 1080p 4K TVs.
• TV Tuner: HAUPPAUGE WinTV-DualHD Dual USB 2.0 HD TV Tuner for Windows PC 1595,Black. USB dongle. Works on Linux.
• Computer: Vero V (PiShop.US version).
• Storage: SanDisk Extreme PRO microSDXC UHS-I Memory Card 1 TB + Adapter & RescuePRO Deluxe (for Smartphones, Action Cameras or Drones, A2, Class 10, V30, U3, 200 MB/s Transfer). I know that the Vero V can accept an external 2.5 HDD that only costs $0.03/GB. However, if the microSDXC card works with the Vero V, then I would prefer that as it is less clutter around the media center.

My questions for the community are:
• Do I have all of this right? / Is there anything I am missing?
• Will this work? I ask because I have read about encryption and DRM being potential barriers.
• Also, the Vero V appears to be a U.K. device. Will what I am trying to do work in the U.S. with the listed devices?
• Anything else?

Thank you in advance.

2

Hi,

Let’s get stuck in.

Antenna: can’t comment. Maybe other Americans can.

Tuner: please keep in mind that ATSC3 is coming up in the US. If your channels are ATSC1/2, you should be fine. But the US is moving towards ATSC3.

Device: Works fine if you install TVheadend

Storage: I’d recommend using a USB SSD or HDD rather than a micro SD card. While it will work, it’s very easy to lose a small micro SD card and you may want more portability. Entirely your choice.

As I say, it depends…

I’m sure others from the US can chime in. You may be better off using an HDHomerun as a network tuner (which OSMC and Vero V) can use, but also keep in mind that the same DRM restrictions apply. Even if you check out their website, they can probably tell you what does and doesn’t work. The US are even cracking down on OTA channels now which truly is a shame.

Sam

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The antenna is entirely dependant of your physical location. There are web sites that you can go to and when you put in your address they will show information about where the broadcasts are coming from. But what your need for a tuner like what your talking about is just whatever is needed for conning directly to your TV. There was a difference in the transformer used in old analog setups but I don’t think ATSC 3.0 needs anything different than what you currently need for regular digital broadcast.

As for ATSC 3.0 it is currently still in flux and a bit of a faff. AFAIK in its current form it is only being used to simulcast as a very low percentage of devices actually support it. Of the ones that do, they may not have audio as the spec mandates AC4 audio which has little support outside of new TV’s with the newest tuners. Additionally certain monied interests are pushing the FCC to allow encryption and are trying to prevent DVR type devices to decode it even if they are certified. I don’t know that anyone trying to do this right now can really make an informed decision to future proof their tuner choice.

I can’t personally answer about a setup with that kind of tuner setup. I went the easy route with a HDHomerun Flex 4K which has a DVR built into it as long as you pay the ~$40 yr. for the guide data. I have a cheap 1TB SSD plugged into it and use a Kodi add-on that integrates that into Kodi’s PVR system. I can access and control the same setup and content in Kodi or using their app on a multiple of devices. It has been working for me quite well for a number of years now. It can also be used as generic tuners with other software as well.

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Thanks for the responses Sam and Darwin as well as the tip on USB attached storage and your current setup.

So would ATSC3 just affect the obsolescence of the $50 antenna and the $70 tuner?

On the topic of future-proofing, what about the current versions of the $190 Vero V and the $200 HDHomerun? If I were to upgrade to newer standard antenna and tuner at a later date, would the current model Vero / HDHomerun still work with them? Or is this just the most inopportune time to be purchasing any of these types of devices?

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AFAIK there is no change in antenna. If someone is marketing an antenna as something specific to ATSC3 that is at best marketing BS. A current gen tuner will become obsolete if at some point either the FCC forces a switch like they did with the digital switch (I’ve not caught wind of this being pushed) or the broadcasters in your area decide to switch to only broadcasting the new standard. If they switched in the near future to only broadcasting the new standard this would mean that all devices with a TV tuner older than a couple years would no longer be able to pick up OTA broadcasts. There was a lot of shouting last time and that was with years of warning, massive PSA campaigns, and government subsidized tuners to keep old TV’s working. I’m not seeing any of that so my best guess is that any major change, if it is coming, is still years off.

The Flex 4K has two tuners that are NTSC current gen, and two that do both current and next gen. The Vero V currently plays the next gen video just fine (it is just standard HEVC compression) but there currently is no support for AC4 audio. I can’t speak to future support for this audio compression standard in OSMC but last I checked I think I remember there were people making good progress on developing open source support for it like was done for AC3. The way I see it worst case for me is that I have to setup something to automatically transcode the recordings if it comes to that. Those HDHomerun boxes are not stuck in their own ecosystem. You can use them with something like TVHeadend or even a Plex server setup.

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Thanks Darwin,

Is AC4 audio the reason that you chose the HDHomerun over the Vero V?

I am leaning towards the Vero V as I still don’t comprehend the downside to choosing it.

Less potential content restriction through encryption perhaps? On the HDHomerun Flex 4K product page they mention that…

Please check the RabbitEars website to see if the ATSC 3.0 channels in your area show a padlock icon indicating that they are DRM encrypted. ATSC 3.0 channels that are DRM encrypted will not work. DRM encryption is used by select broadcasters to block out-of-home viewing, limit what player devices can be used to watch TV, enforce that the original tuner hardware is always present to view recordings, and to block third party apps. Optionally a broadcaster can force recordings to expire after a period of time and/or block recording completely.

I checked RabbitEars for my locale and did not see a padlock icon on any of the channels.

Thanks again.

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Perhaps I didn’t make myself clear enough. I’ve used Kodi for decades and I like it more than any other media player. I used it on Xbox’s and PC’s and when the RPi’s came around I moved to those with OSMC’s previous OS and then upgraded to OSMC OS when it came out. It has worked great so I have stuck with this path ever since. I use both RPi’s running OSMC and Vero’s daily in my house.

I had actively avoided setting up a PVR in Kodi for years as it always seemed complicated and something that would be maintenance headache. Whether this was true or not I don’t know as I never followed that path. When I decided I was tired of paying for Dish Network and switch to just getting OTA a DVR was mandatory as I have no patience for watching commercials or being stuck to tuning in at a set date and time. After researching and weighing my options I found that Flex 4K was the best I could find for what I was wanting to do. I wasn’t overly thrilled with the price but since it was less than Dish was charging me for a couple months of service and equipment fees, that wasn’t a deal breaker. I originally ran it with an extra spinning rust hard drive I had laying around but ended up swapping that out for a SSD that I picked up super cheap just so it used a bit less electricity and didn’t make any noise. Using a SD card or thumb drive was never something I considered as they will wear out much faster with constant writes. DVR’s that allow instant replay, pausing, etc. of live TV are writing to the disk whenever your using the tuner so this is important. I had considered running backend software on something else to avoid paying HDHomeruns fee for DVR/guide data but what I was seeing online was free guide data was frequently less reliable, accurate, and something where your having to find new providers for. I could purchase better guide data for a bit less than from HDHomerun, but not by much, and having an all-in-one tuner/PVR that doesn’t require much of any maintenance is quite desirable to me.

As for using a HDHomerun on something other than Kodi you can do that, but I don’t do it very often as a matter of preference. I much prefer Kodi’s UI and having a single app that has all my movies, series, music, DVR, and live TV all in one place. I mostly only use their App on my phone or tablet when I’m looking to add something new to record. I don’t carry my TV around in my pocket so I don’t usually have it with me when people are telling me to check out some program. I also use the tuners themselves with Plex but not personally. The people living in my house find Kodi much easier to use but I also run a Plex server to give access to my content to some friends and family. I was requested to record some holiday events so I just added my tuners to my Plex server so they could do it themselves. Plex doesn’t integrate with HDHomerun’s DVR but it uses the tuners for its own backend system without conflicting with my regular setup (other than when a given tuner is being actively used on one DVR it becomes unavailable to the other DVR system). Plex was actually super easy to setup for this but If someone was coming into it new this would be more expensive than a Vero as you would need something to run Plex server on, a now very expensive Plex Pass, and then something to run Plex Player.

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Wow! Great reply. Thanks again for your help Darwin. I hear that the path you chose is based on your past work-flow and ease of setup and use.

From your post it sounds like the Kodi media player can be – and is – installed on your HDHomerun, yes? That’s cool.

More than anything that is the kind of thing that is driving my decision. I would really prefer a device that is as open as possible and I love that the Vero V has open-source RPi guts and software, which is why it my first choice as it appears to be a way to avoid vendor lock-in. Second would be the HDHomerun Flex 4K (based on Sam’s and your recommendation) and third would be a device I just stumbled upon a few hours ago: ZapperBox M2 Single Tuner Whole Home DVR (more affordable than the M1). Barring the potential future-proofing advantage of choosing the ZapperBox or the HDHomerun, is there any technical reason that a Vero V would not work as an OTR DVR for someone in the U.S.? Or is this just a personal preference decision?

PS- I finally got around to reading about ATSC 1.0 to ATSC 3.0 issue last night. Woah, what a rabbit hole! From what I currently understand based on what I read, due to some big-name device manufacturer’s not totally jumping onto the 3.0 bandwagon, abundant audio compatibilty issues, and due to there being so many already-deployed legacy 1.0 devices, most pundits are predicting that broadcasters are not likely to drop 1.0 simulcasts any time soon. So that is good news, I suppose. Also, 1.0 is locked in through 2027.

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No, you misunderstand. Kodi is a media player software that originally was developed to run on the original XBox game console (It was called XBMC back then). It was later made to run on other hardware. OSMC is both a company name and the name of a Linux distro (an operating system) that uses Kodi as its primary program and user interface. This operating system runs on either Raspberry Pi’s or Vero devices. Vero’s are custom built hardware and not RPi’s with a bespoke enclosure. The OSMC OS is open source and you have full access to the command line and can run whatever Debian compatible software that you want.

The HDHomerun tuner devices AFAIK are not open source and don’t run any third party software. What I was saying is the Flex 4K can be used either as a standalone DVR backend, or you can use it as just TV tuners just like less fancy USB ones. I’m saying that they are not locking you into only being able to use their software solution.

My personal setup has a computer with a bunch of hard drives that houses all my media other than my DVR stuff. I then have the Flex 4K with its own storage sitting by itself. I then have a number of Vero’s and RPi’s around my house connected to every TV. These devices all run OSMC/Kodi and pull media from the aforementioned devices.

How exactly one sets up a media player is based upon their needs and budget. Most people playing local content just use a USB connected hard drive plugged right into their player. Those running a DVR might have the backend installed in OSMC and the tuner/s plugged directly into the same device as well and just use the same drive for local content and DVR recordings.

I’m not familiar with them.

I live in California. The Vero is not a DVR. It runs Kodi and Kodi has the ability to work as a DVR in addition to the other things it does if someone connects it to a DVR backend. A DVR backend obviously requires tuners to work and the tuners need to be compatible with the broadcast standard of your local market. It is possible for someone to do all of that on a Vero if they purchase tuners and manually install and configure the backend. You might have a look at the following to get more info on such a setup…

https://kodi.wiki/view/PVR

In my case I say “forget that” and just went with a Flex4K taking care of all the backend stuff with a single box sitting on my network with a hard drive plugged into it and installed an add-on in Kodi that just automatically integrates that into Kodi.

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I’d note that the Vero (with kodi running) would be the front end. There are a number of kodi addons to connect to various DVR back ends.

first, I don’t think there is such a thing as a 1600+ mile antenna unless you are using a satellite dish… the Amazon ad is bullshitting you. You might get stations 90 miles a way if you have a tall tower with an old fashioned directional antenna on it, but the thing advertised in that amazon add is unlikely to pick up anything more than 20-30 miles away… you need to consider where you are in relation to the broadcast towers to work out what sort of antenna you may need.
you can use something like RabbitEars.Info - Signal Search Map to figure out what you are likely to be able to pick up and how strong the signals are and what direction you need to point the antenna. (possibly, you may need 2 antennas pointed in different directions attached to 2 different tuners to get the stations you want)

The DVR would be a back end, and you have a plethora of choices of how you could set that up.
First you have your tuner device. That could be a USB-based tuner, or a stand-alone network tuner (such as a flex4k) or it could be a PC with a tuner card installed.

Second, you need some DVR software. If you have a stand-alone network tuner with it’s own DVR, that may be built in, or you may want to run something like TVHeadend, or NextPVR or MythTV or one of the other various DVR applications. They would be responsible for actually doing the recordings and providing the network guides to Kodi. That could either run on a separate device (such as on your NAS or a PC that you use as a file server) or it could run on the Vero (with a USB HD attached), If you have more than one TV, you may want to consider running it on a separate system, so that all your TVs can share it.

ATSC 3.0 is hit-or-miss. Only a few stations are broadcasting that currently, and many of those have chosen to put DRM on top of it which makes it unusable for a Kodi-based system. The AC4 audio is also tricky to deal with (not yet supported by default in kodi), but there are ways of dealing with it via some docker-based conversion options. (as long as the station is not DRM)

Personally, I have a file server with a Hauppage card in it running TVHeadend (as a docker image now-days), and I added a Hdhomerun Flex4k (stand-alone network device) and point tvheadend at that as well. (I have 2 antennas pointed in different directions) TVheadend also lets you add in IPTV based streams (such as the streams used for the Samsung IPTV list or Xumo or Pluto), although some of those can be tricky to set up. I’ve only got a couple non-DRM atsc3 stations availble, but have those piped though another docker app to convert the ac4 to ac3 that kodi can play. ( Package hdhr-ac4 · GitHub ) effectivly, kodi points at tvheadend, tvheadend has the atsc3 channls set up as iptv channels pointiting at the hdhr-ac4 app which in turn grabs them from the hdhomerun flex4k.

Also you will need an EPG source. if you are using something like tvheadend which is working with the tuner at the hardware level, it can pull in the EIT data from the over-the-air channel, but you may want to use some other EPG source (such as schedules direct) for more complete info. (and if you are setting up IPTV channels such as some european channels, you may need to research where to pull epg data for them… )

So, yes, it can all get complicated depending on what you need…

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