When it’s done.™
Let’s make a deal. Anytime someone asks for a release date it gets pushed back one week
Are we there yet?
I think @sam_nazarko will turn the car around if anybody asks again.
What I mean is, have a separate section of the website where you constantly advertise the OSMC road-map as it stands, what is being worked on currently, what is likely to be worked on next, give approximate estimates as to how long each thing might take, and include a list of things that have been added to or removed from the roadmap, together wth the dates when it happened. (Sprinkle liberally with disclaimers to the effect that things can change at any moment, and that estimates are sometimes very approximate indeed).
The reason I think this is a good idea… well, see the thread on frame-packed 3D support for a good example. Some people got a little cross there because you promised 3D support would be looked at “soon” nearly two years ago, and it didn’t happen. But the thing is, I don’t think people were upset just because it didn’t happen, what they got upset about was that they felt they were left hanging - a decision was taken not to proceed with that because other things were more urgent (fair enough!) but no update about that was posted, so people were waiting patiently for months, thinking that the thing was being worked on all the time, when actually it wasn’t.
But, as it stands, that’s the only way things can work: there are thousands of threads on the board, and you’ll have said something about what might be worked on in hundreds of them, and it’s utterly impossible to keep track of all of the places where you might have said something about the roadmap and update them all if it changes.
But if you only had to update it in ONE place - that’s potentially doable.
And think of how often people post on here asking if something is being worked on, or when it might be finished, and how much time you spend posting variations on “when it’s done” - if there’s a single place that always answers that question and that is prominently advertised, it’ll eliminate a lot of unnecessary posts and responses.
People will always find something to complain for, if you give them feature A, they will say they want feature B.
The same reason why some people love OSMC (constant and direct support) is also its cross, because they have someone that has to listen to them and give an answer even if they don’t have a real ETA or update at that moment.
I’m absolutely positive that no one here that complained so much about a wanted feature did the same to Samsung, Sony or any other big player on the market, just because they know that no one will listen to them.
Sometimes as a developer you’re not always aware of when something can be achieved. It’s not due to ignorance or oversight, but a case of ‘shit happens’. When I can give clear timelines, I do so.
The 4K + shipping situation was complex, but I made sure to keep people as updated as frequently as possible. There is no benefit from lack of communication; only downsides. The shipping backlog was caused by corrupt customs officials in the EU, which forced stringent checks and backlogs.
Kodi v18.x has some issues with its CMake build system. I have workarounds, but I want to fix these in a more appropriate manner before release. I don’t air dirty laundry and don’t like criticising open source projects. I prefer to get things fixed via the appropriate channels. At the moment, I cannot ensure a reproducible build, which is a big no-no for stable releases.
As always – you think something is just a couple of days away but something pushes it back. Something you didn’t know would be an issue.
This is not feasible unfortunately
The last thing I gave a good time frame on was HLG. This led to a critical review of no one but yourself (on AVForums); saying it wouldn’t happen EOY 2018. You weren’t wrong in that regard. This is now ready; but I’m definitely discouraged from putting any dates on anything for the foreseeable future unless I can guarantee it.
Better to say ‘we’re still working on it’ than give a date. In the case of HLG, I can say that we have it running.
3D MVC has been thoroughly looked at, and I still look at it. Unfortunately there is no progress so far in a meaningful context for a user. Once v18 is out of the door, I will look again. There’s a difference between looking at something and producing a measurable result from it however.
There are a lot of things we’re working on – the goal here is to under-promise and over-deliver.
There’s absolutely no reason I’d hold back information from any of our users. I don’t like BS and I don’t understand why sometimes getting an answer from a company is like pulling teeth.
I do appreciate your concerns. v18 will be out the door and it will be soon. I have standards for what constitutes a release; currently they are not being met.
While I understand what you are saying and I understand you have your standards and you don’t want to air dirty laundry I think just saying v18 was shipped with a bit of code that’s not really up to my standard and I’m fixing it and this may take some time to do would be a lot better than just saying v18 will be shipped when it’s ready.
Don’t let people blame you for delays if you are just fixing other people’s mistakes
If people would stop nagging Sam here, he would have more time finishing the update. Just seeing Sam having to reply here with long posts is counter productive. Let him do his job.
Since the issue is with cmake scripts there’s really no one to blame.
If you don’t work in IT you don’t know what it means to estimate an ETA and respect it. When deadlines have to be met developers will always tend to give long ETA’s because you have to take multiple things into account, external providers might delay, something for which you estimated X might take Y amount of time, etc.
Since OSMC doesn’t have a fixed deadline developers can say “when it’s ready” and focus on quality, something which is often neglected nowadays because deadlines are so strict that you either have to choose between taking your time to fix stuff and do it perfectly or do it at your best to meet the deadline.
Would you like kodi for osmc to be released in a broken state? I for sure wouldn’t. If you expect quality let people work and wait till it’s ready.
Why can’t I like a post more than once? This is so true.
How should Sam do somethink on OSMC if he had always response the “Where is the new Version” Questions?
The same people who are asking where is the new OSMC, 15 seconds after a new Kodi is released are complaining if he released it directly after it, and it’s not working proper.
I worked for 5 yrs in a CMMI-5 rated software development environment. 100% bug-free code was the mandate. No exceptions.
When I left that job, we believed all critical errors were fixed. The project continued for 15 more years. Part of the software validation was root cause analysis for any bugs found at any point of the development process. There were 7 levels of testing to the system, 5 of those levels happened by outside companies who reported to a different govt directorate. Their independence was critical.
Over those 15 remaining years, over 100 critical bugs were found in the software which existed at the time we believed it to be bug free. It is hard to explain to non-developers, but every line of code that I touched has my name attached. There is no hiding. As a development team of 15 people, we were causing less than 1 bug every other year in the code. Extremely high quality software that wasn’t trivial.
A critical bug was something that could cause catastrophic vehicle loss and total loss of crew. Each vehicle was estimated to be worth over $2B. Bugs were found during missions, but none ever prevented the mission from being completed or broke the vehicle(s). There were other catastrophic vehicle failures, unfortunately. These were world news for months.
So … I can say with some authority that angry.sardine is correct. The program “Tex” is commonly used as the example of nearly bug free code in the world. Don Knuth wrote it and paid bug bounties for any errors found. Errors were so rare that people didn’t usually cash the cheque, preferring to post it on their walls instead.
I don’t understand the purpose of this discussion.
People who can’t wait for Kodi 18 should install the osmc dev version and use it. That’s what I did. Since months. I am running 4 osmc Kodi instances with the dev version.
If something doesn’t work it helps the development, if everything works, that should be fine as well. Software doesn’t work better if it’s labeled release, it just gets better from working out the bugs or problems.
Indeed, and presumably you were working with a well-defined set of inputs, well defined ‘vehicles’, 3rd party software which was subject to the same rigorous checks and you could test the results right in front of you on the target hardware.
The bigger the company the worse. That’s the feeling I have. It’s like they release bad stuff on purpose and let the customer be the testuser
One of the main reasons I’ve bought the Vero 4k+ is because it’s doing a wonderful job out-of-the-box.
And this is something that you don’t see a lot anymore.
I’m ok with the extra time before v18.1, as it allows me to perfect my set up for the most part prior to release. Once it is out, all I have to do is double check to make sure nothing is broken post upgrade.
If we’re being fair to all, this is a problem that the OSMC team has contributed to, through their public communication.
Check out Sam’s comment about “a few days”, back in November: Kodi 18.0 RC1 has been released. When can we expect OSMC to be updated? - #5 by sam_nazarko
Further, ActionA’s later comment in the same thread left open the possibility of delivering the Leia version of OSMC as soon as early February. Even if this was a possibility, what was to be gained by letting that idea persist?
At that time, especially because the thread could be read by anyone with any level of knowledge, the expectations could have been clearly set that (a) the 18.0 release date was irrelevant to the OSMC release date, and (b) it could be more like a few weeks, not just days, after the 18.1 release before the next OSMC could be ready.
I’m happy with OSMC, and grateful to the team for building and supporting a product that is a big part of my life. But I hope that for Kodi 19 the release messaging will improve, and there might also be some visibility into the status of the tasks going into getting to the release.