Kodi Monitor judder/stutter/flicker Issues

Hi guys

I’ve been speaking to Sam about purchasing the new Vero V. I’ve been having motion judder/stutter/flicker issues with my current setup, but we’re unsure if the Vero V will be able to solve these issues. I was hoping the “Dynamic Refresh Rate adjustment (with 23.976/24p support)” feature would solve it, but Sam is unconvinced.

My setup is as follows:

  • Windows 11 PC (Ryzen 7600X and Radeon 6800 XT)
  • Kodi 20.2
  • Dell G3223Q

The issue I’m facing is general judder/stutter/flicker in motion, particularly panning shots. I’ve linked a photograph that I took of my screen, as well as a short Youtube clip of the same example. The shot comes from the intro to the movie Red, where Bruce Willis takes the trash out in the snow. The photo shows ghosting / image doubling. This is not to do with the response time of my monitor as it has very fast response times. The scene from Red is also a very slow pan, so it’s not ghosting introduced by the monitor. When I view the scene it’s almost as if the image flickers back and forth between 2 frames and is very distracting on the eye. I’m not sure if this is due to the refresh rate of my monitor being between 48 - 144 Hz. I’ve also tried to enable the Kodi settings, “Adjust display refresh rate” and “Sync playback to display”, but these seem to have no effect on the judder/stutter/flicker.

If anyone has used the Vero V with a similar monitor I’d love to hear about your experience. As stated above, I’m not sure if the Vero would help with these issues? Any assistance to try mitigate this would be hugely appreciated!

Photograph of screen:

Youtube clip:

Your YT clip plays OK on Vero V to a Panasonic 4k TV (edit: only if I turn off ‘1080p Pure Direct’) but stutters on Windows/Firefox on my old Benq FHD display (minimum vertical frequency 55Hz).

If you post the full EDID here (try Monitor Asset Manager on Windows) we should see what your monitor will make of 24Hz content.

24fps material being played at 60Hz can cause judder - motion that should be smooth instead goes faster-slower-faster-slower-faster-flower. But this isn’t something that creates ghost images, it just makes what should be smooth look jerky.

It has to be said, most modern displays struggle a bit with motion, but sometimes there are things the display is doing that make it worse. On a television, I would be telling you to turn off frame- or motion-interpolation settings. PC monitors typically don’t have those, but it’s conceivable they may be doing something else that causes artefacts. I’m guessing wildly here, but can you, for example, turn off the FRC feature? And if you do, does that help at all?

Hi Graham

Thanks for getting back to me. You can find the full EDID report below.

Monitor Asset Manager Report, generated 2023/10/09
Copyright (c) 1995-2019, EnTech Taiwan.

Monitor #1 [Real-time 0x0100]
** Model name… DELL G3223Q**
** Manufacturer… Dell**
** Plug and Play ID… DEL4284**
** Serial number… 55X70P3-859387733**
** Manufacture date… 2022, ISO week 48**
** Filter driver… None**
** -------------------------**
** EDID revision… 1.3**
** Input signal type… Digital**
** Color bit depth… Undefined**
** Display type… RGB color**
** Screen size… 710 x 400 mm (32,1 in)**
** Power management… Standby, Suspend, Active off/sleep**
** Extension blocs… 3**
** -------------------------**
** DDC/CI… Supported**
** MCCS revison… 2.1**
** Display technology… TFT**
** Controller… RealTek 0x2718**
** Firmware revision… 65.3**
** Firmware flags… 0x007445CC**
** Active power on time… 1018 hours**
** Power consumption… Not supported**
** Current frequency… 319,10kHz, 144,00Hz**

Color characteristics
** Default color space… Non-sRGB**
** Display gamma… 2,20**
** Red chromaticity… Rx 0,684 - Ry 0,310**
** Green chromaticity… Gx 0,261 - Gy 0,654**
** Blue chromaticity… Bx 0,142 - By 0,062**
** White point (default)… Wx 0,313 - Wy 0,329**
** Additional descriptors… None**

Timing characteristics
** Horizontal scan range… 30-255kHz**
** Vertical scan range… 48-144Hz**
** Video bandwidth… 600MHz**
** CVT standard… Not supported**
** GTF standard… Not supported**
** Additional descriptors… None**
** Preferred timing… Yes**
** Native/preferred timing… 3840x2160p at 60Hz **
** Modeline… “3840x2160” 594,000 3840 4016 4104 4400 2160 2168 2178 2250 +hsync +vsync**

Standard timings supported
** 720 x 400p at 70Hz - IBM VGA**
** 640 x 480p at 60Hz - IBM VGA**
** 640 x 480p at 75Hz - VESA**
** 800 x 600p at 60Hz - VESA**
** 800 x 600p at 75Hz - VESA**
** 1024 x 768p at 60Hz - VESA**
** 1024 x 768p at 75Hz - VESA**
** 1280 x 1024p at 75Hz - VESA**
** 1152 x 864p at 75Hz - VESA STD**
** 1280 x 800p at 60Hz - VESA STD**
** 1280 x 1024p at 60Hz - VESA STD**
** 1600 x 1200p at 60Hz - VESA STD**
** 1680 x 1050p at 60Hz - VESA STD**
** 1920 x 1080p at 60Hz - VESA STD**
** 1920 x 1200p at 60Hz - VESA STD**
** 1600 x 900p at 60Hz - VESA STD**

Report information
** Date generated… 2023/10/09**
** Software revision…**
** Data source… Real-time 0x0100**
** Operating system… 10.0.22621.2**

Raw data
** 00,FF,FF,FF,FF,FF,FF,00,10,AC,84,42,55,37,39,33,30,20,01,03,80,47,28,78,EA,1E,75,AF,4F,42,A7,24,**
** 0F,50,54,A5,4B,00,71,4F,81,00,81,80,A9,40,B3,00,D1,C0,D1,00,A9,C0,08,E8,00,30,F2,70,5A,80,B0,58,**
** 8A,00,C4,8F,21,00,00,1E,00,00,00,FF,00,35,35,58,37,30,50,33,0A,20,20,20,20,20,00,00,00,FC,00,44,**
** 45,4C,4C,20,47,33,32,32,33,51,0A,20,00,00,00,FD,00,30,90,1E,FF,3C,00,0A,20,20,20,20,20,20,03,7C,**
** F0,02,70,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,**
** 00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,**
** 00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,**
** 00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,9E**


Hardware data
** BUS_SLOT = PCI00000.PCI00004.PCI00008.PCI0000C.PCI00010.PCI00014.PCI00018.PCI0001C**
** 00000000 = 14D81022.00000000.06000000.00800000.00000000.00000000.00000000.00000000**
** 00000008 = 14DA1022.00000000.06000000.00800000.00000000.00000000.00000000.00000000**
** 00000009 = 14DB1022.08100407.06040000.00810010.00000000.00000000.00030100.3000F1F1**
** 0000000A = 14DB1022.00100406.06040000.00810010.00000000.00000000.00040400.200001F1**
** 00000010 = 14DA1022.00000000.06000000.00800000.00000000.00000000.00000000.00000000**
** 00000011 = 14DB1022.00100407.06040000.00810010.00000000.00000000.00110500.2000E1E1**
** 00000012 = 14DB1022.00100406.06040000.00810010.00000000.00000000.00121200.200001F1**
** 00000018 = 14DA1022.00000000.06000000.00800000.00000000.00000000.00000000.00000000**
** 00000020 = 14DA1022.00000000.06000000.00800000.00000000.00000000.00000000.00000000**
** 00000040 = 14DA1022.00000000.06000000.00800000.00000000.00000000.00000000.00000000**
** 00000041 = 14DD1022.00100407.06040000.00810010.00000000.00000000.00131300.0000D1D1**
** 00000043 = 14DD1022.00100406.06040000.00810010.00000000.00000000.00141400.000001F1**
** 000000A0 = 790B1022.02200403.0C050071.00800000.00000000.00000000.00000000.00000000**
** 000000A3 = 790E1022.0220000F.06010051.00800000.00000000.00000000.00000000.00000000**
** 000000C0 = 14E01022.00000000.06000000.00800000.00000000.00000000.00000000.00000000**
** 000000C1 = 14E11022.00000000.06000000.00800000.00000000.00000000.00000000.00000000**
** 000000C2 = 14E21022.00000000.06000000.00800000.00000000.00000000.00000000.00000000**
** 000000C3 = 14E31022.00000000.06000000.00800000.00000000.00000000.00000000.00000000**
** 000000C4 = 14E41022.00000000.06000000.00800000.00000000.00000000.00000000.00000000**
** 000000C5 = 14E51022.00000000.06000000.00800000.00000000.00000000.00000000.00000000**
** 000000C6 = 14E61022.00000000.06000000.00800000.00000000.00000000.00000000.00000000**
** 000000C7 = 14E71022.00000000.06000000.00800000.00000000.00000000.00000000.00000000**
** 00000100 = 14781002.00100407.060400C1.00010010.FCC00000.00000000.00030201.0000F1F1**
** 00000200 = 14791002.00100407.06040000.00010010.00000000.00000000.00030302.0000F1F1**
** 00000300 = 73BF1002.08100406.030000C1.00800010.0000000C.000000F8.0000000C.000000FC**
** 00000301 = AB281002.00100400.04030000.00800010.FCBFC000.00000000.00000000.00000000**
** 00000400 = 52361DBE.00100406.01080201.00000010.FCF00004.00000000.00000000.00000000**
** 00000500 = 43F41022.00100407.06040001.00010010.00000000.00000000.00110605.0000E1E1**
** 00000600 = 43F51022.00100404.06040001.00010010.00000000.00000000.00070706.000001F1**
** 00000620 = 43F51022.00100404.06040001.00010010.00000000.00000000.00080806.000001F1**
** 00000628 = 43F51022.00100404.06040001.00010010.00000000.00000000.00090906.000001F1**
** 00000630 = 43F51022.00100404.06040001.00010010.00000000.00000000.000A0A06.000001F1**
** 00000638 = 43F51022.00100404.06040001.00010010.00000000.00000000.000B0B06.000001F1**
** 00000640 = 43F51022.00100404.06040001.00010010.00000000.00000000.000C0C06.000001F1**
** 00000648 = 43F51022.00100404.06040001.00010010.00000000.00000000.000D0D06.000001F1**
** 00000650 = 43F51022.00100407.06040001.00010010.00000000.00000000.000E0E06.0000E1E1**
** 00000658 = 43F51022.00100404.06040001.00010010.00000000.00000000.000F0F06.000001F1**
** 00000660 = 43F51022.00100406.06040001.00010010.00000000.00000000.00101006.000000F0**
** 00000668 = 43F51022.00100406.06040001.00010010.00000000.00000000.00111106.000000F0**
** 00000E00 = 812510EC.00100406.02000005.00000010.00000001.00000000.FC900004.00000000**
** 00001000 = 43F71022.00100406.0C033001.00000010.FC800004.00000000.00000000.00000000**
** 00001100 = 43F61022.00100400.01060101.00000010.00000000.00000000.00000000.00000000**
** 00001200 = 52361DBE.00100406.01080201.00000010.FCE00004.00000000.00000000.00000000**
** 00001300 = 164E1002.08100406.030000C7.00800010.2000000C.000000FC.3000000C.000000FC**
** 00001301 = 16401002.00100400.04030000.00800010.FC6F8000.00000000.00000000.00000000**
** 00001302 = 16491022.00100400.10800000.00800010.00000000.00000000.FC500000.00000000**
** 00001303 = 15B61022.00100406.0C033000.00800010.FC400004.00000000.00000000.00000000**
** 00001304 = 15B71022.00100406.0C033000.00800010.FC300004.00000000.00000000.00000000**
** 00001306 = 15E31022.00100006.04030000.00800010.FC6F0000.00000000.00000000.00000000**
** 00001400 = 15B81022.00100406.0C033000.00000010.FCD00004.00000000.00000000.00000000**
** --------**

Hi Sardine

From your description of judder, it definitely sounds like the case. When I watch the scene in motion it feels faster-slower-faster-slower.

I’ve tried disabling VRR but it doesn’t seem to make a difference. Is there any sort of OSD software that I can install to show my monitor’s current refresh rate? The only OSD options I’ve found are frame counters which aren’t helpful as they’ll always display 24 fps when viewing this kind of content.

So leaving aside that the EDID doesn’t comply with VESA/CTA standards, it seems your monitor makes no attempt to advertize support for CTA video modes such as those with 24Hz refreshrates. But if the OSD is reporting 24Hz that’s encouraging. Didn’t you have a Vero4k once? If that worked OK with that monitor there’s no reason why Vero V wouldn’t work the same.

Is it an issue that the monitor doesn’t comply with VESA/CTA standards? You have me worried now haha.

So when I mentioned OSD, I meant Riva Tuner Statistics Server will report 24 FPS. But that’s just counting how many frames the GPU is serving, as far as I understand. I don’t think it has anything to do with the monitors current refresh rate? My monitor’s native OSD doesn’t have a refresh rate reporter that I’ve found. Is there a 3rd party software I can install that would report the monitor’s refresh rate live?

I haven’t owned a Vero 4K. Sam advised me to wait for the V.

Not really. We see lots of EDIDs that don’t follow the rules. I think the essential information is all there.

Confession time: today playing your YT clip on Vero V and on Vero 4k I do get juddering. It’s quite regular, not random stickiness as sometimes happens which I would call stuttering.

So what is the parentage of that clip? Did you just clip it out of your rip or did you capture it somehow? Can you paste mediainfo for it?

That was just a clip I found on YouTube, not my upload. Any source I use to playback the movie gives the same results.

So are you experiencing judder on both your tv and monitor?

Yes. Edit: No - only on the monitor.

Oh that’s unfortunate. In my experience, the only way I’ve been able to remove judder on a modern tv is to enable motion interpolation. But that’s obviously not ideal.

Is there a specific feature/specification that I would have to look for in a television set so avoid these kinds of issues?

Edit: I see RTINGS has a tv judder chart. As far as I can tell investing in one of these sets would be my only option to resolve the judder I’m experiencing?

Quite likely. According to that article, even TVs don’t have a native 24Hz mode. FWIW I just tried that Red clip on my Philips OLED and it’s smooth as butter. I don’t think this problem should stop you investing in a Vero V.

The judder - i.e. what should be smooth motion actually going faster-slower-faster-slower - should be completely fixed by any TV that supports 24Hz input modes. Ghosting or smearing is much harder to deal with. Motion interpolation usually causes far more problems than it solves. The one feature that may help a bit is Black Frame Insertion - but this also reduces image brightness and can introduce visible flicker, depending on how it’s done.

I definitely don’t think the Vero would be an issue, but pairing it with my monitor likely isn’t going to produce the results I’m after. So I think I need to invest in a tv first, as far as I can tell?

Yeah unfortunately I can’t stand BFI, it gives me a headache.

Oddly, my Panasonic (judders with certain settings) claims a minimum refreshrate of 23Hz, while the Philips (smooth) claims minimum 48Hz but support for 24Hz at both 1080p and 4k.

There is some variation between TV manufacturers as to how well their processing handles motion; Philips has a reputation for doing it relatively well compared to some. But there are limits to what can be achieved with a 24fps source and a sample-and-hold display technology.

I don’t think Phillips make their own TVs or have done so for a while…

Philips don’t make anything these days except some medical equipment.

1 Like

I’ve heard that Sony tends to have good motion handling in modern televisions. Could be worth a look? It’s just sometimes difficult sourcing specific tech items in South Africa. Most of the time I have to take what I can get. The X85 models seem to suit my needs whilst being relatively affordable.